Displaying reports 62021-62040 of 77270.Go to page Start 3098 3099 3100 3101 3102 3103 3104 3105 3106 End
Reports until 11:15, Wednesday 17 December 2014
H1 General
jeffrey.bartlett@LIGO.ORG - posted 11:15, Wednesday 17 December 2014 (15676)
08:30 Meeting Minutes
End-Y: The faulty ETM-Y ESD connector was repaired (see aLOG #15656).   
The first cleaning of the ETM-Y optic with First Contact was completed with some success. There are still several areas of concern left on the optic. A second First Contact application will be removed today. 

End-X: Preparations (cleaning, cleanrooms, garb, etc.) for entry into End-X are underway in case it is decided to clean the End-X optics.
    
HAM1: The work in HAM1 is finished. The door will be reinstalled today.

EE: PEM cabling work in the LVEA.

Seismic: Hugh adding CPS ground straps to the HAMs in the LVEA. 
LHO FMCS
bubba.gateley@LIGO.ORG - posted 09:28, Wednesday 17 December 2014 (15673)
Instrument Air Compressor@ MX
The #1 instrument air compressor was changed out at Mid X yesterday afternoon.
H1 CDS (CDS)
david.barker@LIGO.ORG - posted 08:32, Wednesday 17 December 2014 (15672)
CDS model and DAQ restart report, Tuesday 16th December 2014

no restarts reported. Conlog frequently changing channels report attached.

Non-image files attached to this report
H1 SEI
hugh.radkins@LIGO.ORG - posted 08:12, Wednesday 17 December 2014 (15669)
Corner Station HEPI Mainline leak at Electrical Break appears stopped

No evidence this morning, almost 24 hours.

LHO General
bubba.gateley@LIGO.ORG - posted 07:39, Wednesday 17 December 2014 (15665)
DCS Construction Progress
The outdoor units and transformer for the DCS addition are set in place. The partition wall is taped and ready for paint.
Images attached to this report
H1 ISC
kiwamu.izumi@LIGO.ORG - posted 23:41, Tuesday 16 December 2014 (15663)
HAM1 in-vac work completed

Elli, Sheila, Kiwamu,

We went in the HAM1 chamber this afternoon and completed the following tasks:

The HAM1 is ready for the door to be back on.

 

(Some notes)

We aligned the POP beam onto the diode when the PRMI was locked on the sidebands, 10W. The beam was visible on a laser card so that it was not a difficult job (though we had to spend sometime trying to re-acquire the PRMI lock). I steered the picomotor that was in front of POP_A to center the beam. After we coarsely adjusted the mirror, we then did a fine adjustment by looking at dataviewer and brought the beam to the center of the PD. This was done by locking a simple Michelson as this was easier to lock and bright enough to see the POP DC signal in the digital system. The beam dump was already in the designed position and I steered the reflection to the dump by rotating the POP_A diode, probably by 1 or 2 deg. Note that at the beginning, beam was barely hitting the dump.

Since none of the pico motors had the collars or kapton washers installed, we installed them this time. After the installation, three picomotors, out of four, still had a room of more than 5 mm in the thread. The last one in front of POP_A had approximately 2 mm in the thread both pitch and yaw.  We opened and closed both REFL and POP beam diverters to make sure that they don't easily get stuck. We did 5 or 6 times of open/close operations and they did not fail.

After we finished the in-vac work, we realigned the PRMI and locked it on the sidebands. We confirmed that the POP was still receiving the light.

H1 ISC
stefan.ballmer@LIGO.ORG - posted 23:37, Tuesday 16 December 2014 - last comment - 23:56, Tuesday 16 December 2014(15662)
High bandwidth BS WFS
Kiwamu, Stefan

Tonight we copied the BS OPLEV filters to the BS M2 LOCK pitch and yaw filters, and modified them slightly to get some moderate DC gain on top of a significant suppression at the optics resonances.
 - The modification we made is
   PIT and YAW: FM1: zpk([0],[100],1,"n") was replaced with zpk([0.1;0.1],[4000;100],0.2,"n") . Together with the WFS filter bank (a simple 1/f integrator) this results in very weak DC feed-back.
   PIT: We added a 1.2Hz resonance peak compensation and a p0.1:z1.5 low frequency boost to FM10:
      zpk([0.02+i*1.2;0.02-i*1.2],[0.200028+i*1.18338;0.200028-i*1.18338],1,"n")* zpk([1.5],[0.1],15,"n")
   The results in a reasonable secondary UGF crossing.

Pitch was tested, and resulted in a unconditionally stable loop.
Yaw wasn't tested yet. A snapshot of the engaged filters is attached.
Images attached to this report
Comments related to this report
stefan.ballmer@LIGO.ORG - 23:56, Tuesday 16 December 2014 (15664)
Also, from this morning's lock, here are some WFS signals that show clearly what is running away.

REFL_B_RF9_I seems to be the prime candidate.

Images attached to this comment
H1 ISC
alexan.staley@LIGO.ORG - posted 22:05, Tuesday 16 December 2014 - last comment - 15:37, Wednesday 17 December 2014(15661)
Sideband Modulation Depth and RFAM
Paul, Sheila, Mackenzie, Alexa
 
We measured the RFAM and the modulation depth for 9 MHz and 45 MHz sidebands. This measurement was previously done by Volker (see alog 3693, 3695).  We followed a similar procedure as explained in our setup alog 15625. During this measurement, the IFR modulation frequency was set to 9.100229 MHz as read from the timing comparator read back.
 

45 MHz RF Input:
12.6dBm out of RF balun on the ISC field racks
3.3dBm into the RF amplifier with -8dB attenuator in the path (with RF power meter).
11.32dBm without the -8dB attenuator (with RF power meter).
21.5 dBm with the -8dB attenuator and with the RF amplifier (with Spectrum analyzer)
3.2dBm into the RF amplifier with -8dB attenuator in the path (with spectrum analyzer).
 
This is consistent with Filiberto's alog 14251 when the RF amplifier was installed.
 
9 MHz RF Input:
17.27dBm measured at the RF balun on the ISC field racks. Based on what we saw for the 45 MHz there might be a 1dBm loss in the cable to the PSL enclosure.
 
Modulation Depth:
With the OSA aligned we found,
 
  RF Input Power Peak Height measured with OSA relative to noise floor Modulation Depth
45 MHz 21.5dBm 79.2mV 0.284
9 MHz 17.27dBm 41.2mV * 0.205
* For the amp of the 9 MHz we had to estimate a bit because the sidebands were laying on the carrier. We estimate that the carrier was about 5.2mV at the peak of the 9 MHz sideband with respect to the noise floor. The 9 MHz sideband peak is then 46.4mV with respect to the noise floor. So the approx 9 MHz sideband is 41.2mV.
 
Meanwhile we measured, the carrier Amp = 3.92 V  with respect to midpoint of noise floor. Similary to alog 8867 we measured the modulation depth using: Gamma = 2*sqrt(V_sideband/V_carrier). The 24 MHz sideband is barely visible. These modulation depths are fairly consistent with what Dan measured using the OMC scan (see alog 14801)

 
RFAM Measurement:
We used an 1811 NewFocus PD (125 MHz Bw) which has a 50 Ohm output impedance for both AC and DC. Our PD is the AC-coupled version the transimpedance gain is 40V/mA (AC) and 1V/mA (DC). So the AC gain is amplified by 40.
DC was connected to a TPS 2024; we measured 28.8mV with high impedance. AC was connected to Agilent 43958 Spectrum Analyzer with a 50 Ohm transimpedance. (Note: this gives another factor of 2 for DC).
Taken from Volker's old alog: the RFAM is then measured via, RFAM = (V_AC/40) / (V_DC/2) where V_AC denotes the Vrms as measured with the spectrum analyzer and V_DC the voltage read from the oscilloscope. The PM value below is the modulation index as measured previously.
 
Spectrum Analyzer peak height for
45.5 MHz = -70.6dBm = 65.99 uVrms, RES BW is 10 Hz, Range is 45.9875 Mhz to 45.50375 MHz (5kHz span)
9.1 MHz = -48.36dBm = 854.05 uVrms, RES BW is 10 Hz, Range is 9.09975 Mhz to 9.1025 MHz (5kHz span)
24 MHz = -98.8dBm = 2.57 uVrms, RES BW is 3 Hz, 24.0784 MHz is the peak which is about center on 5kHz span
 
  RFAM RFAM/PM
45 MHz 1.146e-4 4.0199e-4
9 MHz 1.486e-3 7.233e-3
The RFAM has degrared over time since Volker measured it in 2012 as expected. Kiwamu tells me that these values are still pretty good.
 
Tomorrow we also want to measure the RFAM after the MC. We are all set up to do this on IOT2R, which already has a PD1811 aligned (this just involves blocking the aux beam). Another thing we might consider doing is installing a long cable to the 1811 on the PSL table and send it to a spectrum analyzer outside the enclosure so that we can monitor the RFAM over time. Also, we need an extention for the 1811 PD power cable; at the moment it can't reach the power supply on the floor unless the box is elevated. We did not want to leave the power supply elevated, so at the  moment the 1811 PD is not powered.
 
 
Comments related to this report
daniel.sigg@LIGO.ORG - 10:43, Wednesday 17 December 2014 (15674)

I annotated the scope screenshot from alog 15639 with carrier and sideband frequencies. Just reading off the plot we have

Frequency Amplitude Unit Ratio Γ
Carrier –22.0 dBm 1
–9 MHz sideband –41.0 dBm 0.112 0.226
+9 MHz sideband –41.5 dBm 0.106 0.213
–45 MHz sideband –39.0 dBm 0.141 0.285
+45 MHz sideband –39.5 dBm 0.133 0.269

Taking the average and assuming a 0.5 dB reading error we have Γ = 0.219(12) for the 9 MHz and Γ = 0.277(16) for the 45 MHz sidebands, respectively.

Images attached to this comment
alexan.staley@LIGO.ORG - 14:58, Wednesday 17 December 2014 (15681)

Paul, Mackenzie, Alexa

We measured the RFAM again; this time after the MC (with the PRM misaligned). Paul and Mackenzie had already aligned the beam onto the AC coupled 1811 NewFocus PD on IOT2R (same specs as before). We blocked the auxiliary laser. Again we used a TPS 30324 to measure the DC signal at high impedance, and the Agilent 43958 Spectrum Analyzer to measure the AC signal. We measured 210mV at DC, and

45.5 MHz = -47.5dBm = 942.9 uVrms, RES BW is 10 Hz, 5kHz span
9.1 MHz = -33.4dBm = 4.7086 mVrms, RES BW is 10 Hz, 5kHz span
 
Using the same formula as before RFAM = (V_AC/40)/(V_DC/2), we find:
 
  RFAM RFAM/PM
45 MHz 2.245e-4 6.762e-4
9 MHz 1.121e-3 5.63e-3

The PM represents the modulation depth. We repeated Daniel's calculation but wanted to collect the numbers with the Spectrum Analyzer to reduce the error. So again, we had the aux beam phase locked to the beam on IOT2R. We measured the following:

  Freq Amplitude Ratio Mod Depth
Beat 60 MHz -22.8dBm 1  
+ 45 MHz 105 MHz -37.96dBm 0.174 0.348
+  9 MHz 69 MHz -43.2dBm 0.095 0.19
-9 MHz 51 MHz -42.50dBm 0.104 0.208
-45 MHz 14.5 MHz -38.82dBm 0.158 0.316

Taking the average we find. Gamma_9MHz = 0.199 and Gamma_45MHz = 0.332. This seems a bit high given our previous two measurements. I have used RFAM = 2 * (Vsb/Vcar). There is no sqrt this time because we are measuring the amplitudes; whereas the OSA measured the power. The PD has a BW of 200 MHz, but maybe we are approacing the roll-off. We tried locking the beatnote at a lower frequency so that we would not need to worry about the PD's roll off; however, we had trouble getting a clean lock even at 20 MHz which seemed to be fine yesterday. Paul will attach the raw data.

paul.fulda@LIGO.ORG - 15:37, Wednesday 17 December 2014 (15688)

..and here are the data. It seems like we can even pick out sidebands of sidebands with this measurement technique.

Non-image files attached to this comment
H1 SUS (COC)
betsy.weaver@LIGO.ORG - posted 19:57, Tuesday 16 December 2014 - last comment - 09:53, Wednesday 17 December 2014(15660)
ETMy Test Mass cleaning status

Betsy, Travis, Rick

How today went:

We spent a few hours this morning working on the in-vac side of the new ESD connector termination checkouts. 

At ~2pm we pulled the FC sheet off of the ETMy-HR (painted on last night).  We immediately saw that the 3 larger FC remnants that were causing all of the glint in the cavity arm were removed.  Yay!  However, it was also immediately clear (with the green flashlight) that the 3" ring feature and mottled haze were still there. 

We took a break at 3pm and spoke to a wider SYS+ audience where it was determined we would attempt to do a test drag wipe on the mottling nearer the edge of the optic.  We worked on getting pictures of numerous mottled areas in the haze of the donut shape on the ETMy-HR before doing some test drag wipes.  Then we chose an area toward the top of the optic where there was another relic IAS window circle print near the 12 o'clock position to test drag wiping.  After numerous failed attempts at performing the light-duty friction-only drag wiping technique on this area I resorted to folding the lens wipe a few times and applying pressure during the drag wipe.  This made a smudge where I wiped which I then had to spend another ~5 wipes removing.  We then reevaluated the mottling and found that we might have improved it in one small place, but not the entire area I had been working on.  We then redirected a streaky area at the bottom of the optic to see if I could get a better technique down.  No such luck and I again had to resort to applying pressure numerous times in order to see an improvement.  Since we had better pictures of the 12 o'clock position mottling area that I had been working on earlier, we decided to revisit that area.  I again made an attempt at friction-only drag wiping of this top area.  In the process I must have lightly swiped the optic with my glove because when inspecting the optic after the drag wipe, we found a ~2mmx2mm patch of particulate just outside of the 3" ring near the center of the optic.  Brilliant.  We also found more particulate on the optic from the waving lens tissues.  We tried to blow them off with a few minutes of N2.  This did not seem to work.  One of the particles was quite large and even a light dab with an swab did not move it (in fact, ~5 attempts to snatch it off via dabbing failed).  Rick captured a few pictures of the "new" features.

At this point we aborted the drag wipe testing and carefully repainted FC back on.  I was very careful to not brush across the large particle nor the "patch" area very much.  I applied very thick ~1 inch long strokes which at first were more like dabs near these areas.  (All other saturated sloppy strokes were ~1-2" in length, repeated.)

I do not think we can drag wipe the full surface (or even the central ~8") of the ETMy-HR.  We were not sucessful in ~25 attempts to get a good pull on the optic except for in the localized areas I mentioned above when I used finger pressue.  And after these attempts we added contaminant to the surface by accident.

The optic size obviously makes it hard to work with.  The working area is too small for 2 hands, elbows, flashlights, your head, etc.  Then, the task is too hampered by suspension brackets and braces to get good surface tension with the flat lens tissue.  The wipe wants to continue to pull off the surface and ripples easily.  As well (or worse), we had a hard time getting the wetted wipe to the surface before the acetone dried.

Rick plans to attach some pictures to this alog so check back later or tommorrow.

Comments related to this report
richard.savage@LIGO.ORG - 09:53, Wednesday 17 December 2014 (15668)COC
Some images to supplement Betsy's narrative.  Hopefully the file names are sufficiently descriptive.
For visualizing some of the features, zooming helps a lot.  Look in the elliptical area illuminated by the green flashlight beam.

Filenames, in order, are:

LHOyTopLineBeforeCleaning176.jpg

LHOyTopLineBeforeCleaning185.jpg

LHOyBirdsHeadBrightEdge180.jpg

LHOyDarkBirdsBeak181.jpg

LHOyLongVerticalBrightPatch182.jpg

LHOyGloveTouchPatch186.jpg

LHOyTopLineAfterCleaning190.jpg
Images attached to this comment
H1 AOS (AOS)
douglas.cook@LIGO.ORG - posted 18:01, Tuesday 16 December 2014 (15658)
HAM5 oplvr transceiver mirror misaligned to the point where the return beam is exiting the viewport
 (Doug Jason)
The HAM5 oplvr mirror must have been bumped in situ as we were unable to get the reflected beam out of the viewport to the receiver. It is far enough off that the reflected beam cannot be seen hitting anywhere. We will need to adjust it with the next vent opportunity.
H1 SUS
filiberto.clara@LIGO.ORG - posted 16:34, Tuesday 16 December 2014 - last comment - 07:51, Wednesday 17 December 2014(15656)
ETMY ESD
Betsy, Filiberto, Gerardo, Richard, Travis

1. The old vacuum feedthrough was removed by Gerardo
2. Continuity test were done on each pin to verify each section LR, UR, BIAS, UL, and LL.
3. The in-vacuum cables were re-terminated for installation of the new UHV 5-way coaxial connector.
4. Gerardo installed new feedthru (has not been leaked checked).
5. In-vacuum and in-air cables were connected to feedthru.
6. All pins were HIPOT to 1K and passed (some pins had to be reterminated).
6. Pin layout for ESD is as follow:
   Pin 1 - LR
   Pin 2 - UR
   Pin 3 - BIAS
   Pin 4 - UL
   Pin 5 - LL
Comments related to this report
gerardo.moreno@LIGO.ORG - 07:51, Wednesday 17 December 2014 (15666)
The ESD feedthrough was removed and replaced, flange will need to be leak tested.
Images attached to this comment
LHO VE
kyle.ryan@LIGO.ORG - posted 16:29, Tuesday 16 December 2014 (15655)
1610 hrs. local -> Started purge air compressors at X-end


			
			
H1 IOO (IOO, ISC, SEI)
sheila.dwyer@LIGO.ORG - posted 12:50, Tuesday 16 December 2014 - last comment - 08:24, Wednesday 17 December 2014(15650)
IMC mystery again

Hugh, Sheila, Stefan, Elli, Kiwamu,

The mysterious IMC misalignment event happened again. We are speculating that there may be a loose optical component in the IMC refl path on the HAM2 in-chamber table.

 


Back in the last February, there was a strange misalignment event in IMC (see alog 10335) where the IMC reflection path seemed to have significantly moved for some reason. This happened again this morning. This time, it was associated with the HAM1 activity of taking the door off from the HAM1 chamber. It tripped the HAM2 ISI and HEPI. After untripping them, we noticed that the IMC reflection was misalgined so much that the beam was almost missing the reflection camera and WFS diodes. However, like the previous event, the IMC power build-up was still reasonably high (it was at 820 counts in MC2 trans which is usually 830 counts or so) when it was locked.  Sheila and Hugh then restored the HEPI back to the previous positions using the IPSs as a reference. At this point we could already see a reasonable DRMI flash at the dark port and also the IM4 trans seemed to have come back to the previous position. Based on these observations, we determined that the misalignment was only in the IMC refl path which is exactly the same conclusion as the previous event. So we realigned the refl path on IOT2L. Now IMC is locking fine and ASC loops were engaged without an issue.

In addition to those recovery activities, we did a brief test where we steered the HEPI by a big amount (~200 urads or so) in each rotational degree of freedom to see if we can reproduce such a big misalignment in the IMC refl, but we could not move the spot on the camera back to the center. Also, we quickly checked the mirrors in the IMC refl path on IOT2L to see if there is a loose component or something easily movable, but we could not find any. The misalignment was mainly in the horizontal direction on the table. The spot position on all three diodes (REFL, WFS_A and WFS_B) had almost the same amount of displacements horizontally, by half a cm toward the East. The attached is 3 hours trend of various sensors. At one point, both the WFSs got misaligned and at the same time the MC1 witness sensors saw a jump in both pitch and yaw (which I think is me untripping the HEPI and ISI).

Images attached to this report
Comments related to this report
hugh.radkins@LIGO.ORG - 08:24, Wednesday 17 December 2014 (15671)SEI

Just to be thorough, I had also taken down the entire corner station HEPI to address a fluid leak.  This took down all HEPIs and most ISIs--maybe the timing here was poor.

Also, "...realigned to the IPS...," we returned the Cartesian positions back to their pre break positions, not the individual IPS values persay.  Still these moves were a few 10s of urads (we ignored the several um of translational shifts.)

Also as a reminder, HEPI only keeps the RZ dof, all others just servo to the free hanging position before the current isolation.  Given the lack of impact of moving the HEPI 100s urads, letting it wander about a few 10s of urads each time it breaks isolation may be reasonable.

H1 SEI
hugh.radkins@LIGO.ORG - posted 09:29, Tuesday 16 December 2014 - last comment - 08:13, Wednesday 17 December 2014(15642)
CS LVEA HEPIs down for ~hour to address leak on main supply line

The leak at the electrical break was still leaking yesterday so I ramped down the pumps, loosened the hose clamps and shifted their position.  Restart would have been faster but my medm was partially frozen giving live data readbacks but unresponsive button pushing.  I mistakenly decided to restart the controller and still had an unresponsive medm.  Medm would not restart and then restarting the AirBook was equally painful.  Once it was restarted and I could get a fresh medm, everything came back easilly.  While the pressures were down, recorded some pressure zero offsets for the database.

Comments related to this report
hugh.radkins@LIGO.ORG - 08:13, Wednesday 17 December 2014 (15670)
H1 ISC (IOO)
paul.fulda@LIGO.ORG - posted 23:12, Monday 15 December 2014 - last comment - 11:04, Wednesday 17 December 2014(15639)
Aux laser (re)setup progress

[Mackenzie, Paul]

Yesterday we had trouble getting a large enough beat signal between the aux laser and the main PSL. After discussions with Dave O., Stefan and Daniel, we were convinced that the aux laser was not operating monochromatically. This can apparently occur if the aux laser is close to a "mode hop" region when we bring its frequency close to the PSL frequency using the temperature control. We then end up observing the beat frequency between the PSL and one of the "parasitic" modes of the aux laser, which has a much smaller amplitude than the main mode.

On Daniel's advice, we adjusted the diode input current as well as temperature, in order to give us an additional frequency control option that affected the proximity to the mode hopping region differently to the temperature. After some searching around, we suddenly observed a forest of peaks, with one especially large peak.

This forest appears to have been a combination of a) saturation of the 1811 AC output exciting harmonics of the base beat frequency and b) contributions from RF sidebands of the PSL light. We reduced the power on the 1811 using the filter wheel (we ended up using the OD 2.5 filter), resulting in the spectrum shown in the attached figure. The VCO offset frequency was 20MHz. Interestingly, the beat between aux laser and 9, 45MHz sidebands are quite visible.

The dominant beat frequency now registers a -22dBm signal at the AC PD output on the spectrum analyzer, even with the power on the PD attenuated such that the DC output from the PD produced by the PSL beam is less than 1mV (the PSL beam is the weaker of the two beams at the PD). This may still seem a little weak, but it is much better than yesterday, when we had ~-50dBm AC on a ~100mV DC signal.

After some adjustment of the servo box gains, we were able to achieve stable PLL locks. There is no slow temperature servo path included yet, so the PZT on the aux laser will go out of range rapidly if the temperature dial is not adjusted by hand. By adjusting the temperature dial, it was possible to keep the PLL locked for tens of minutes. 

Next, we switched the frequency reference for the PLL offset from the Marconi VCO to the swept sine output of the network analyzer. This presents a new challenge, because now not only does the aux laser have to phase lock to the PSL, but it also has to track the offset frequency generated by the NA. After playing around with IF BW, sweep ranges, source power etc., we were eventually able to get the aux laser to reliably phase lock to the PSL and track the NA frequency through a ~2MHz frequency range (almost enough for a full PRC sweep). We convinced ourselves that the PLL was locked and tracking the NA frequency by observing the TF from NA drive signal to 1811 AC output. When the PLL is locked, the TF is flat, high, and smooth, since the 1811 AC output is coherent with the NA signal at the same frequency. When the PLL is unlocked, the same TF is many decades smaller.

Each time the NA reaches the end of a sweep and flips back to the start frequency, the lock drops. I'm not sure there's much we can do about that. It would help to have the slow path enabled though, in order to compensate for slow drifts of the aux laser frequency away from the PSL frequency. 

Next we plan to try some PRC sweeps if there is PRMI locked time available. For this, we will take the TF from NA drive signal to one of the REFL AIR broadband detectors, with the PRMI locked and the PLL locked. Depending on how that goes, we may pursue the slow temperature feedback development. 

Images attached to this report
Comments related to this report
daniel.sigg@LIGO.ORG - 16:54, Tuesday 16 December 2014 (15657)

With a subcarrier you can measure the strength of each individual RF sideband---with upper and lower sidebands separated around the VCO frequency. The ratio you see here between RF sideband amplitude and carrier is a direct measurement of the modulation depth.

paul.fulda@LIGO.ORG - 11:04, Wednesday 17 December 2014 (15675)

Great point, what a convenient way to measure the modulation depth! It's also probably a lot more precise that the OSA.

When we get the PLL going again later today I'll save the data from the spectrum analyzer so we can do a more careful analysis.

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